Comments on: For Discussion

By: Brandon Phillips

Brandon Phillips — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 04:14:06 +0000

Carter-
I don’t mean to carry this one any further but I feel as if a reply is necessary. My time spent teaching is approximately 25-30 hours per week during the regular school year and about 12-15 for part of the summer. My potting time averages out to 20-25 hours per week over the course of the whole year. Time spent potting is only slightly more than teaching yet my income from potting is double that of teaching. Were I devoting all my time to potting I could produce much more work and do many more shows thus producing a higher income…in theory of course. I like to think of my teaching job actually paying for my materials along with my paycheck, I’m definitely on the lower end pay-wise for adjuncts, why? I don’t have my MFA.

When I lived and worked in my old studio I potted fulltime and I did approximately 15 shows per year with maybe 10% local sales. I was single with very little debt and made a good income. When I moved to where I am now I spent a year without a studio and then another year getting back into things. I worked as a carpenter during that time as well as courting my wife and ultimately getting married. When my wife and I had decided to marry she was interning for the non-profit she now works for and made very little money. Even though I made a good income from pottery we all know it’s not steady income. That worried me a lot so I cut my shows in half an took a part-time job at a restaurant and ultimately landed this teaching position which pays less than potting…but it pays every month. I made the choice for a lower income that was assured over a higher one that could be sporadic. My wife earns a decent wage now and she would be okay with me going back to full time potting but…I’ve now grown to love teaching and I don’t want to give that up…I’ve taken up the nobility of being an underpaid educator as well I suppose(though I’m due for a raise this year, sweet!)

I think maybe my situation was reversed from most…having to support my wife for a short time scared me into a “regular” job as opposed to needing the regular job to actually support myself. I’m not presenting this as a rebuttal but rather as the choice that I have made and why. I think some people would like to hear that it’s ok to have a regular job. When you’re working that job you’re not potting so it’s not always fair to say that the job subsidizes the pottery…I think I’ve shown here that is not always the case.

By: lucy fagella

lucy fagella — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 15:18:05 +0000

Hi Ron,

At the same time we have similar posts. For the past few months I have keeping data on how much time it takes to make a dinnerware set. I put out those results on what I make per hour on my blog http://www.lucyfagellapottery.wordpress.com. It is a good discussion we are generating. Hopefully non potters read it, and come to realize what goes into making a living as a potter/artist!

By: ron

ron — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:56:18 +0000

Thanks everyone for taking part in this discussion. Feel free to continue to post comments here if you wish but I’m gonna move on with more posts. I do feel like I’ll return to some of the things brought up here in due time. I feel like blogs are a good forum for us potters to share why we do what we do and how we do it. I think the internet is a great place for us to use as a marketing tool and as an educational tool. We can share with one another as craftspeople and with our customers or folks who may be getting started in pottery as well as collectors, appreciators, or just curious lurkers.

I think the craft movement is strong and alive and it’s evident in the amount of comments that we all care very deeply about what we do. It was also humbling to see how we all respected one another. Thanks for taking part. Let’s keep asking questions, helping one another and pushing forward. Most of all let’s all keep making the best work we can because we love what we do.

By: carter

carter — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:23:43 +0000

I get the feeling our discussion is petering out with only one new entry yesterday. It has certainly been eye opening to see what others have experienced in different circumstances. I will certainly go forward with a better apreciation of the dilemnas that other potters face and have definitely lost some of my naivety. In my mind what is very apparent is that there is a difference between those potters who can make a living and those who cannot, but that succesful potters don’t have a uniform strategy for making it work. Part of this can reflect a personal philosophy in how to strategize one’s pricing, and part of this may reflect pressures that are more external. For instance, some of us can price our pots whatever we feel them to be worth, and because we are able to sell them at that price it never is an issue. Others for perhaps a variety of reasons are forced to pay more attention to external factors. Would Brandon’s pricing change if he had to pay for material costs, if he didn’t also have a teaching job and a wife with a stable income, and he also wasn’t able to consistently sell the ware he makes? There might be so much pressure on what he could earn from a mug that the noble ideal of charging only $16 or $18 simply wouldn’t pay the bills (Brandon I apologize for taking you as my example but you are the only one in this discussion who has been that open about those factors in your production, and of course this is only a hypothetical scenario). For folks like Brandon and myself pricing is a moral issue and reveals much more about what we are trying to do with our pots than it does about the market place. If we are lucky then the market will support this attitude toward pricing. Those of us who are making it are only doing so because our strategy is being supported by the market, not simply that the strategy itself is the key. Big Al’s example of the limo service should not be discounted. Any time you try to sell something you are automtically enmeshed in the influences of supply and demand. Probably each of us tries to do a significant ammount of selling in our own local environment, so either we are supported by this community or we are not, and it may have very little to do with our own abilities, talent, or hard work. The community may just not need a limo service, or it may have way more than it needs, and these factors are simply not in our control. And as Gabe has pointed out so well in his blog post (everyone here should really read it), the pottery market is such a specialized situation that it is almost a miracle that anyone actually wants to own what we make let alone pay prices that we are comfortable with. Every time I sell a pot I am humbled that this small piece of my creative output has inspired someone to fork out however much money I am asking. I never take it for granted that these pots will sell because I apreciate how precious and often tenous this transaction between maker and buyer is. I am not making pots to earn a living. I make pots and I hope that I will make a living. I believe that what we do as potters is a valuable contrabution to the world and that it would be a much poorer place if we did not add to its beauty.

By: christy

christy — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:49:23 +0000

Quite an interesting topic… I just wanted to address the idea of raising prices to what the market will bear. I’m certainly in no position to tell people how to price their pots. I only hope that people realize the consequences of raising prices to what the market will bear.
I think maybe a story is best to illustrate my point. When I was in college I was dead broke. I would sometimes hang my laundry up in my room to save the $1.50 from the dryer. My senior year I was really getting into pottery, and I was lucky enough to live close to Clary Illian. I visited her shop on numerous occasions. Toward the end of the year I bought myself a mug… $9. Which I know is rediculous I know. She could have easily gotten $25 a mug, probably more. However she charged $9, her choice.
I bought the mug, it was the first piece of pottery I bought. It was a great mug. I took it back to the studio and tried and tried to copy it… not much luck. However it has been an inspiration to me for years.
I guess what I’m getting at is that the price you choose to charge changes who your customers are and who they can be. Along with this I believe the more you charge for you functional pottery the less functional it becomes. People are going to think twice before pulling down that $60 dinner plate for a dinner party.
Am I advocating for everyone to make/sell $9 dollar mugs? Certainly not, though I am grateful that Clarie was there to sell me her mug. Everybody must figure out how much they have invested in their pots: time, material, overhead, ect…. I just want to make the point that raising the prices of our pots changes more than just how much money goes into our pockets. There is nothing wrong with selling pots for large amounts of money if the market is there. Personally though I’m happy selling my pots for what may be a little bit less than the market can bear.
Joe

By: Big Al

Big Al — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:09:37 +0000

This thread should be captured for EVERY business and economics class ever taught. Each of you are so right and yet come from different perspective.

I remember my econ teach talking about markets, pricing, etc. He said that limo service was available in every town in america. Being from a small (less than 1000 people) town I knew we didn’t have limo service. Before I could pipe up another student jumped up with that exact point. The teacher then said, the service is there if anyone is willing to pay for it. If someone wanted it someone would provide it, provided they could agree on a price. I’ve carried this with me for 33 years and it holds true. No one in my town could afford a limo at the price a service would have had to charge to make it worth their while.

Pottery has a wide range of prices people will pay…but the volume is price sensitive even if we don’t see it. Aaron has a great point about raising his price and not seeing anything. He is also right about what the potter wants to get out of it. While he does not see a difference in unit sales if he had enough units there would be a difference. My econ teacher would tell you that if you can not see a change in unit sales with a price increase you have not raised the price enough. Aaron could likely make much more overall by selling fewer units at a higher price. Should he? That is a decision he and the market have to settle for themselves.

Profit is NOT a bad word. When I look at anything I decide is it worth it to me and go from there. Sometimes it is and sometimes not.

My Ron pots for salt and pepper are awesome. I use them every day and they mean something to us. Ron is part of our family (OK, by 2 marriages) but that is a strong connection for me and is another reason I like the pots. I don’t know if they are art, strictly utilitarian or something in the middle. I like them so I bought them.

Sorry to ramble. You have no idea how interesting I have found this thread! Thank you all for sharing. I envy your ability to make pots and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

By: Lee in Mpls

Lee in Mpls — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 00:01:19 +0000

Yagi put a Bic lighter on the table when Rob Bernard had him critique some electric fired pots that Rob felt captured the essences of wood fir. Yagi asked Rob what the purpose of the lighter was and Rob said something like, “An inexpensive way to start a fire.” Yagi asked, “Does it deliver what it promises?” Rob said, “Yes.” Yagi told Rob, “Your pots don’t.”

One thing we have to do is make pots that are as good as the Chacos. In Mashiko, the Tsukamoto factory made jiggered platters and have an automated glaze trailing machine that decorates kuro, nuka or kaki drips perfectly every time. A platter costs about $35.00. I always measure my platters against Tsukamoto’s. I have to give something extra, that those jiggered platters don’t have.

Almost 20 years ago, I was impressed by the plain pine, nailess casket my late Zen teacher’s body laid in state in for three days. Made by a traditional Hasidic casket maker. The casket maker helped me decide to become a potter.

By: Aaron Sober

Aaron Sober — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:10:02 +0000

As i’m following this thread i’m struck by all things potter’s ought to be doing. We should be pricing our work affordably, or pushing the market to its limit, or living humbly, or making as much money as possible. We all ought to be using only wooden tools, or stainless steel, or synthetic sponges. I ought to wedge my clay more but i’m trying to save my wrists for centering. Some potters would right off any finished product i make because of this.

In Minneapolis, the heart of Warren MacKenzie mania, people appreciate why his pots are so cheap. He represents one end of the market spectrum. As far as i can tell, this has been good for my business. Last year i raised the price of my mugs from $25 to $36 dollars across the board and have seen zero difference in sales. This price will increase again, maybe not for years, and only to a point. But, it will go up. I don’t think anyone should apologize for their pricing. If i charged $100 for a mug, there would still be zero possibility of getting rich from it. And if one did realize wealth, it would in its own way raise up the art form. I think that these days, people who want to keep their pots accessible can do so in a variety of ways besides just selling cheaper pots. There is an aesthetic to approachable pots. Also, focusing on a local market rather than a national one is another way to stay true.

There is an economy to the scale potter’s can work at, and an economy to the market they can hope to realize. We can hope and educate and wring our hands about reality, we can wish we were art stars or japanese apprentices, but the reality of it is, for every last one of us, reality. I think the challenge is to shape that for ourselves.

By: Gabe Sealey-Morris

Gabe Sealey-Morris — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:43:51 +0000

I think Al’s got it – he’s the only one of us so far getting real about the situation. As I said somewhere, the art market is an artificial market. It sells items worth nothing on their own for whatever price someone will pay.

It’s ironic that any of us would think of pricing based on what we want to be paid the hour. The whole idea of hourly wages comes about because of the Industrial Revolution and mass-production – when your labor no longer had a value because of the knowledge and experience that came with it, but had value only because of the number of hours you worked as a cog in a machine. Prior to that, we determined the value of crafted items by the quality of the object and the artisan’s knowledge.

Unfortunately, I don’t think either of those models applies today to pottery.

By: brandon phillips

brandon phillips — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:28:56 +0000

i understand and agree with what you are saying, i think that perhaps we define “status” differently. I tend to take definitions to the extreme.

I think ayumi is a fantastic potter(though i think artist may be a more appropriate term.) and from what i’ve heard i’m sure she’s a great person. but i’d really like to understand her justification for the $90 mug. clearly her and I come from very different schools of thought, which is okay. I’m pretty outspoken about how I feel about this whole thing, but I certainly don’t believe that my way is the “right” way or the only way, but it is the right way for me.