For Discussion

I also personally believe in paying for good shoes, decent jeans, good basics like that, though there was certainly a time when I couldn’t do that and I still like to search for good bargains. Good food is important to me. Sometimes that means I pay more for better groceries and less processed foods, sometimes that means a nice meal at a great restaurant, and sometimes it means a burger at our favorite pub. I like paying for a good piece of pottery that I will hold, use, and enjoy for a long time though I think hard about buying a new piece partly because I know I could just fill up the house with stuff like that. The stories behind the pottery mean a lot to me–stories about the artist, the way the piece was produced, or whatever.

My husband splurges on stuff like nice handbags for me because he knows I won’t do it for myself, but I have a great one he gave me that I will have for years and years. We have recently started buying some photos that we have really enjoyed having in our home. Things that last are well worth paying for if you can do it and I don’t believe they all have to be expensive. It makes life more enjoyable to have your favorite things around for a while.

My kids get my pottery seconds or pieces I’ve helped them make themselves to keep in their own area in the kitchen and they love it. I feel they’re learning to love using handmade things and also to not worry if something happens to one of them. So better than cheap plastic. Learning to take care of things but also learning that everything isn’t precious is a good lesson also. Sometimes I wonder if people are afraid to actually use things or maybe don’t want things they can’t toss in the dishwasher.

What do we spend money on? My VW Eurovan that functions as our little home on many occasions. 2008-09 : $1200 new AC, $900 new brakes and sensors, $800 new ball joint, serpentine belt, and brake pads. Oil changes-$60 every 3000 miles, new tires $500. Not to mention the ridiculous car payment we make and insurance, gas. Every time I get a check for a class or something, it seems like the van needs some repair. I love my van and it saves us on hotel charges and we use it for most of our vacations, so it’s worth it, but dang I would love to buy something fun with all of that money! Also, good shoes- a pair of Merrill hiking boots three years ago for $90 that I wear every day except for the days I wear my $90 Keens. Hardly ever buy clothes except cool band T shirts and of course there is the child that requires feeding and clothing. Groceries, jeez that’s a big chunk. Health insurance, another big chunk, and then Gerry’s pay check is gone. He makes a pretty decent salary with the AP and I make almost nothing- but mortgage, food and cars take all of it. Not much left for fun stuff. It’s weird, we used to make less and were able to spend on extras. Now we make more and have nothing left. WTF! I do have a little extra on occasion for pottery, gotta buy pottery!

I think one thing is missing, so far, from this convo. What does it cost to make pots, today. Since I can remember I’ve been selling cups for around 20-30 bucks. That’s been about 20 years. What’s wrong with this picture? I have never sat down to figure out exactly what it costs to make a cup. I may have become more proficient at making them, for sure. But what about the cost of basics, all discussion of luxery aside? I just wanted to chime in briefly before I go to work after supper to finish some pots.

I’ll chime in here. To start with my wife and I don’t make much. She works for a non-profit and I teach as an adjunct(looooow-pay) and make pots the rest of the time. I easily make more selling pots than teaching. Combined though we do okay for the region that we live in. We’ve never concerned ourselves with having the newest electronics or the nicest cars. We’re the kind of folks who buy something quality and use until it’s dead. We generally only spend big money on things that concern out careers our hobbies. Our television and most of our furniture are hand-me-downs and we are perfectly okay with that. When it comes to spending money those things aren’t important to us. I may be going out on a limb here but I think this sort of idea may ring true for most of the people commenting here.

I spend a decent amount of money on tools…not as much as I used to though. When I was a carpenter I began acquiring quality tools. I stress the term quality. When it comes to power tools often times the higher price in indicative of the quality of the tool(though this isn’t always true.) I have found that just because a brand makes one stellar tool it doesn’t mean that all their tools are top-notch. My Porter-Cable circular saw is one of the best made…but I wouldn’t drop a dime on their nailguns or sanders.

On the flipside of that quality comment my walmart steel toe boots($40) are more comfortable and have outlasted my Wolverines($110) by almost 2 years. So who knows?

I don’t want to ruffle any feathers but…most handmade pots don’t match the durability of many of the mass produced wares. My wife has a bunch of porcelain/white stoneware? dishes that were relatively inexpensive and are far more durable than any of the handmade dishes that we own. So telling customers that handmade pots are just as durable is often times deceitful. They are however superior in adding to the quality of life and the experience of using them, I believe this wholeheartedly.

We like to buy pots and art whenever we can…we trade a lot because often times the art we really like is beyond our budget, that’s the advantage of being in the artist’s circle I suppose. Surrounding ourselves with objects of beauty or objects that we have an emotional connection to is enriching and adds a level of contentment that I think few people enjoy. I would much rather spend $200 on pots than new clothes or movies or eating out, etc.

As far as bringing the general public to appreciating pots….that can be a hard sell(especially if you woodfire!) I’ve always done my best to educate my public and I will continue to do so. The main reason we put the Deep Roots exhibition together was for educations sake. Texas is definitely not an art-enriched state so it takes a huge amount of effort to educate here. Our public school system certainly is of no help(another discussion for another day.) The Deep Roots show will probably net me less than an average art festival/show and the work involved putting it together was probably ten-fold of a typical show. We really wanted to open people’s eyes and show them pottery was more than ash trays, french butter dishes and blue pots, and we certainly did! The key was getting the exposure in a venue that had more of a draw than my showroom and being the main attraction in that venue. I am certain that my home sales are probably going to double or triple in sales from here on.

My production costs are going to be a little bit outside the norm. My yearly tangible production costs are under $100(should I publicly say this???). The art dept. I teach at provides all my raw materials(they threw this in to sweeten the deal though I would’ve said yes anyways.) My studio is also there, so no utility expenses. My kiln is mostly salvaged brick and I fire with free scrap wood. My only expense is the gas to pick up the lumber and transport my pots from the university. That said raw materials are the cheapest expense for any potter. If I did pay for my materials it would be somewhere around $1000 per year. Shows are my biggest expense, overall expenses(show+travel+lodging+food) can range from $200 to almost $1000. A friend of mine does the ACC wholesale show, his expenses are $4000 for that show. So what do I actually make hourly? I don’t want to know. If I did I may have to charge $40 for my coffee mugs and I just can’t have that. Warren Mackenzie is “retired” and “only” makes 5000 pots a year. I’m guessing the average price per pot is around $25($5-$150 range). You do the math. Most potters are not set up to work like that nor could we sell that many pots. This makes the $6 cup not feasible to us. I make about 1500 pots per year so this yields a much different pricing structure.

I should stop not…I could go on and on.

I am finding that as potter’s, we are being paid for our materials and our time. At best, this can earn us a solid working class income. At worst, well, it is a minimum wage job. I think a major challenge, rarely taken up, is to find a market where we can be paid for materials, time, and inspiration. This is why paintings are so expensive and pots so cheap. I think a lot of us would kill for a working class salary (say detroit in its heyday). That said, it would be ideal, and maybe idealistic, to be paid for a little more than sweat, and see some monetary reward for the intangible aspects of making art.

I live in Warren MacKenzie land and i think it is wonderful what he has done with his life and career. I don’t think it should be a literary model for someone running a business these days. It just isn’t possible. None of us got into this to get rich. I try not to ever break it down and figure out what i am making an hour but focus on those days when i wake up, roll into the studio when i please, and make what i want for just as long as i want. This is not every day, but i feel wealthy on days like it.

I’ve been a barefoot or boots kind of guy for over 10 years, but i understand your approach to quality. I easily spend more on ceramics a year than I do on my personal clothing. Part of it is as a collector… but I pass on alot of work after I’ve gotten to ritualistically fondle it for a month or 2. ( I’ve been eye balling you for the past 8 months and you just keep getting better and better…)
Personally i see the economic downturn as the beginning of a small renaissance in the arts (small “a”). A whole lot of us are looking to concentrate on making quality not quantity for a while. I personally am drawn to works that show the extra attention without necessarily knocking the price out of reach. I see the domestic arts enjoying a unseasonal boost in sales while patrons shift to thinking in practical terms. Cups, canisters, and teapots marketed as art for our personal spaces seems to hit a nerve for a growing segment of the general public. I agree with most of what has been said… it’s a good time to be a potter.

Ron, your post inspired a long response from Gabe on our blog. To simplify – asking how to convince people to buy a $40 is the wrong question. What really needs to be done is not to convince consumers to reconsider their values, but for potters to reconsider their own sense of value. Potters need to start seeing themselves the same way that poets see themselves – as making a product for a small, elite audience buying items that cannot be valued or priced in a practical way.

Go to oldcatdied.blogspot.com to see the whole post. We would love comments!

I was on bathroom break when a woman rolled up to the Artstream to have a look at our wares @ last Saturday’s Aspen Farmer’s Market. My buddy estimated that she had about $4000 worth of jewelry hangin off her.
She goes on to pick up a mug of mine and say ‘this is THE perfect Latte’ mug’…
(Now bear in mind this women has probably learned to fork over $6 for a latte’ multiple times a week as opposed to the 85cents she was paying for a cup of joe a decade ago)
Same women is then appalled that i am asking $40 for said ‘perfect’ mug and then felt it neccessary to explain to my buddy that she buys LOTS of pottery in and around her home in Georgia and never pays more that $12 for a mug.
now
there are lots of avenue’s to drive a conversation like that. i wasn’t there for this one – but – typically in such a situation i’ll immediately let go of the sale and put my educators hat on… Explore how one values their objects of daily use, how one values the creative class of our culture and how one values $40 cash.
This women did not walk away with her perfect latte’ mug – but neither did I. Part of me hopes she misses it and will know better next time – and part of me is grateful that there is a healthy, educated audience in my region – and part of me can’t believe that I sell my paintings for a paltry $40.

At the end of the day it is our responsibilities as the makers to set prices that let us continue and evolve as makers w/out developing chips on our shoulders.

Hey Ron, thanks for the response.

I do think the best chance of altering the market for the benefit of professional potters (especially those on the lower levels of fame or recognizability) will be the internet. It vastly opens up the market for potters to connect with collectors and may have a hand in leveling the playing field to narrow the gap in pricing. But I’m not entirely sure that’s a good thing: it also means that there are more potters competing, and, as Carter says, too many potters with too few buyers hurts everybody.

p.s. I love plumbing and wasn’t trying to down my plumbers out there.

Hi Ron, I’m trying to think back to before I started working in clay, to remember why I purchased pottery, to put myself in the place of the purchaser or consumer to see what might motivate them to purchase a well crafted and artistic piece of pottery. A few of the reasons I purchased pottery as an uneducated pottery person were: because I did flower arrangng and I wanted a beautiful vase to display my floral arrangmeents; because I cooked gourmet meals and I wanted a unique serving dish; had dinner parties and wanted a special dinner service to serve food on; a particular shape or color of a piece of pottery might be just the feature I needed in my home decor; I might have purchased pieces of sculpture as a gift for those who collected a particular item; I used to collect cats and friends would give me cat sculptures as gifts; a family member collected dogs, so I purchased dog sculptures for them. So I see there are many reasons people will purchase handmade pottery. Most of the time I wanted to give or have something that I couldn’t find anywhere else, that was made with care and thought. I wanted art in my life and felt that it was worth the price to splurge a little on the finer things in life. At the same time I realize that everyone’s style is different and what might appeal to me may not appeal to someone else, so some folks may like one piece of pottery and others may not.

I’m on the other side of the coin now working in clay and I find that folks who purchase my pottery say it’s the passion and the feelings I express to them, that they somehow feel from me which makes a difference in whether they purchase a piece or not. Usually the price is not the object. Most want something unique and handmade and are willing to pay for it. Most of my sales come from face to face contact with the person wanting a special piece whether it be for themselves or for a gift. Several folks have expressed to me that they can tell my hands were all over the pottery and they like that aspect. I think folks want to know that something was handmade and not mass produced and also want to know something about the person who made the piece, about the inspiration and process of how the piece came about.

I’ve found education is an important aspect when dealing with the public. At the few shows I’ve attended I printed information (in case I didn’ thave a chance to talk to them personally at that time) about how my pottery is made and fired and the public has been very receptive to that information. I also have that information posted in my studio for folks to read. And I talk about my pottery to just about everyone I meet. About how much I love working with clay and expressing myself through that medium.

Currently I am on a tight budget and only spend money on bills, food and necessities, but when I am a little money ahead, I purchase a few new tools for clay, or a pottery book, and then I occasionally spend a little money on some special pieces of pottery. Oher times I trade with other artists for art.

For now I take time to cultivate friendships in person and on my blog and to discuss and learn about pottery. I have found in life someone’s circumstances might change and they might be in the market for that special piece of pottery for themselves or as a gift for someone or may know someone in the future who might want just what I have made.

When I used to do landscapes I said if I ever won the lottery I’d have a botanical garden where folks could come and enjoy it and I have a small garden here now where folks come to visit. Now if I win the lottery I’ll have a pottery museum in a garden. We want what we love for us but mostly we want what we love for others.

We compare our prices because the reality is that’s the first thing a person looks at “after” they are taken in by the visuals of the pot. Unfortunately I don’t think the buying public sees much beyond these two factors, or wants to think much about why one mug might be twice as much as another. They like it or they don’t, it fits their budget, or it doesn’t.

And like it or not more potters out in the world today than when I started out. (I don’t have actual data.) This may be why the price of a mug hasn’t changed a whole lot in twenty years. There is more competition out there than we may want to admit to each other.

I would love any comments that you all have about the idea of hourly wage compensation, costs and materials and how that affects how you price your work. I posted some of my own thoughts today at http://www.bluegillpottery.blogspot.com and wondered what your hopes and dreams were in this area.

Great discussions! As a non-potter but one you loves pottery (I don’t have much but enjoy what I do have) and a confirmed free market educated believer I’ll weigh in from a different angle.

Shoes are NOT an investment or if they are they are a very poor investment. Investments are where you place your money in expectation of making more mone. Shoes don’t do that UNLESS you sell them. I don’t know Chaco/Keeen from Keds/Rockport. But I can tell you from checking out the web pages for them and doing some reading that those shoes are targeted to an audience who will buy them at prices above comparable shoes by other makers. If you like them buy them. Nothing to apologize for. It is your money. However, there are others shoes that cost less that would work just as well. Not a criticism, Just an economic fact.

You can not base your prices of your pottery on your time/hourly rate, cost of materials, etc. Prices are dictated by the market. Perfect example is a car. I’ve seen the same car sell for well above sticker when it comes out and in a few months it sells below sticker. Nothing has changed except market conditions.

You can sell your product at a price the market will bear. An old master did not take much time/effort to produce a painting compared to the millions it costs today. And it is not inflation either. Two painters paint at the same time and one becomes “famous” and one doesn’t. Price is then dictated by the markets value on the painting.

Economics tells us that there is a range at which most products sell. Let’s take cups. I’ve seen prices on pottery from $12 to $95 for similar cups (shape, size, etc.) Why the difference? Quality, maybe. Material, possibly. Desire for a specific potter’s product, more likely.

Let’s take a specific cup. A RON cup (which I have given as gifts). That same cup can have a price range of $0 to say $90. I’d suspect at the lower end you’ll sell all you can produce. At the upper end you’ll likely sell very few. The key for the seller is to find the price that maximizes the units sold to the price of the product to the “cost”. This means that you sell fewer units than the lower end but make more money overall than sell just a few at the upper end.

Pottery is both utilitarian and art. It is a product that is in the middle. It is also a status item, or can be. To me, the key is to maximize the potential of all those. The cups I sent to a friend in Ohio (thanks again Ron) have become special to her. She tells everyone about them. I’ve had people contact me about them and I’ve sent them to Ron’s site. (Hope they actually bought something.)

Education is key. I’d venture to say that most people thing of the utilitarian nature of the product. Get to know your customer and make the item personal to them and you.

My butter dish that I got from Jen is awesome. Yeah, I can get a butter dish from Wal Mart for $3 or so (plastic) and it holds butter great and probably fits in my fridge better. But my Jen dish is unique. I love the color, I’m familiar with the artist/potter and it has meaning. It is also a conversation point with friends and family at dinner/gatherings. My family likes it, too.

My wife has several coach bags. They last a long time but so do some of the ones in Target. But I think she deserves Coach because she has to put up with me. To me pottery is about appreciating life, enjoying a connection with people and the world. I just wish I had more of it!

Thanks for all you potters make. We are better for your efforts.

this is the basis for my pricing philosophy. take it however you please. am i a romantic? sure, and what is so wrong with that?

http://supportyourlocalpotter.blogspot.com/2007/09/warren-mackenzie-in-nutshell.html

i understand and agree with what you are saying, i think that perhaps we define “status” differently. I tend to take definitions to the extreme.

I think ayumi is a fantastic potter(though i think artist may be a more appropriate term.) and from what i’ve heard i’m sure she’s a great person. but i’d really like to understand her justification for the $90 mug. clearly her and I come from very different schools of thought, which is okay. I’m pretty outspoken about how I feel about this whole thing, but I certainly don’t believe that my way is the “right” way or the only way, but it is the right way for me.

As i’m following this thread i’m struck by all things potter’s ought to be doing. We should be pricing our work affordably, or pushing the market to its limit, or living humbly, or making as much money as possible. We all ought to be using only wooden tools, or stainless steel, or synthetic sponges. I ought to wedge my clay more but i’m trying to save my wrists for centering. Some potters would right off any finished product i make because of this.

In Minneapolis, the heart of Warren MacKenzie mania, people appreciate why his pots are so cheap. He represents one end of the market spectrum. As far as i can tell, this has been good for my business. Last year i raised the price of my mugs from $25 to $36 dollars across the board and have seen zero difference in sales. This price will increase again, maybe not for years, and only to a point. But, it will go up. I don’t think anyone should apologize for their pricing. If i charged $100 for a mug, there would still be zero possibility of getting rich from it. And if one did realize wealth, it would in its own way raise up the art form. I think that these days, people who want to keep their pots accessible can do so in a variety of ways besides just selling cheaper pots. There is an aesthetic to approachable pots. Also, focusing on a local market rather than a national one is another way to stay true.

There is an economy to the scale potter’s can work at, and an economy to the market they can hope to realize. We can hope and educate and wring our hands about reality, we can wish we were art stars or japanese apprentices, but the reality of it is, for every last one of us, reality. I think the challenge is to shape that for ourselves.

This thread should be captured for EVERY business and economics class ever taught. Each of you are so right and yet come from different perspective.

I remember my econ teach talking about markets, pricing, etc. He said that limo service was available in every town in america. Being from a small (less than 1000 people) town I knew we didn’t have limo service. Before I could pipe up another student jumped up with that exact point. The teacher then said, the service is there if anyone is willing to pay for it. If someone wanted it someone would provide it, provided they could agree on a price. I’ve carried this with me for 33 years and it holds true. No one in my town could afford a limo at the price a service would have had to charge to make it worth their while.

Pottery has a wide range of prices people will pay…but the volume is price sensitive even if we don’t see it. Aaron has a great point about raising his price and not seeing anything. He is also right about what the potter wants to get out of it. While he does not see a difference in unit sales if he had enough units there would be a difference. My econ teacher would tell you that if you can not see a change in unit sales with a price increase you have not raised the price enough. Aaron could likely make much more overall by selling fewer units at a higher price. Should he? That is a decision he and the market have to settle for themselves.

Profit is NOT a bad word. When I look at anything I decide is it worth it to me and go from there. Sometimes it is and sometimes not.

My Ron pots for salt and pepper are awesome. I use them every day and they mean something to us. Ron is part of our family (OK, by 2 marriages) but that is a strong connection for me and is another reason I like the pots. I don’t know if they are art, strictly utilitarian or something in the middle. I like them so I bought them.

Sorry to ramble. You have no idea how interesting I have found this thread! Thank you all for sharing. I envy your ability to make pots and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

I get the feeling our discussion is petering out with only one new entry yesterday. It has certainly been eye opening to see what others have experienced in different circumstances. I will certainly go forward with a better apreciation of the dilemnas that other potters face and have definitely lost some of my naivety. In my mind what is very apparent is that there is a difference between those potters who can make a living and those who cannot, but that succesful potters don’t have a uniform strategy for making it work. Part of this can reflect a personal philosophy in how to strategize one’s pricing, and part of this may reflect pressures that are more external. For instance, some of us can price our pots whatever we feel them to be worth, and because we are able to sell them at that price it never is an issue. Others for perhaps a variety of reasons are forced to pay more attention to external factors. Would Brandon’s pricing change if he had to pay for material costs, if he didn’t also have a teaching job and a wife with a stable income, and he also wasn’t able to consistently sell the ware he makes? There might be so much pressure on what he could earn from a mug that the noble ideal of charging only $16 or $18 simply wouldn’t pay the bills (Brandon I apologize for taking you as my example but you are the only one in this discussion who has been that open about those factors in your production, and of course this is only a hypothetical scenario). For folks like Brandon and myself pricing is a moral issue and reveals much more about what we are trying to do with our pots than it does about the market place. If we are lucky then the market will support this attitude toward pricing. Those of us who are making it are only doing so because our strategy is being supported by the market, not simply that the strategy itself is the key. Big Al’s example of the limo service should not be discounted. Any time you try to sell something you are automtically enmeshed in the influences of supply and demand. Probably each of us tries to do a significant ammount of selling in our own local environment, so either we are supported by this community or we are not, and it may have very little to do with our own abilities, talent, or hard work. The community may just not need a limo service, or it may have way more than it needs, and these factors are simply not in our control. And as Gabe has pointed out so well in his blog post (everyone here should really read it), the pottery market is such a specialized situation that it is almost a miracle that anyone actually wants to own what we make let alone pay prices that we are comfortable with. Every time I sell a pot I am humbled that this small piece of my creative output has inspired someone to fork out however much money I am asking. I never take it for granted that these pots will sell because I apreciate how precious and often tenous this transaction between maker and buyer is. I am not making pots to earn a living. I make pots and I hope that I will make a living. I believe that what we do as potters is a valuable contrabution to the world and that it would be a much poorer place if we did not add to its beauty.

Hi Ron,

At the same time we have similar posts. For the past few months I have keeping data on how much time it takes to make a dinnerware set. I put out those results on what I make per hour on my blog http://www.lucyfagellapottery.wordpress.com. It is a good discussion we are generating. Hopefully non potters read it, and come to realize what goes into making a living as a potter/artist!